“Homosexuality…is a reflection of a heart that doesn’t know Jesus Christ”

If you have been on Facebook and Twitter the past few days, you probably have seen numerous posts about the Duck Dynasty fiasco. Frankly, it just annoyed me, and I rolled my eyes at some of the comments coming through my feed. I liked a few , but I REFUSED to waste my time giving my opinion.

Until now…

And I really don’t want to do it, but I’m angry. If you knew me personally, you would know that it takes a lot to make me mad…like a lot! I don’t mind people disagreeing with me, and I think people have the right to believe what they want. I strive to see situations from others’ viewpoints.

First off, I’m a devoted Christian who happens to be gay. Contrary to what you may think, I never chose my sexual orientation. In fact, I feel that I had more of a choice deciding to place my faith in Jesus Christ as opposed to whom I’m emotionally, mentally, romantically, and yes, physically attracted. And for full disclosure, I found what Mr. Robertson said to be offensive, not that homosexuality is sin but that it was compared to bestiality. And I really hated the part that he described it in terms of just genitalia. Umm…why is it that straight people always go immediately to thoughts of sex when discussing homosexuality? Seriously, do heterosexuals think about sex all the time?

Anyways, I just say that to let you know that I really don’t care if my Christian brothers and sisters disagree with me over my interpretation of Scripture on this topic. I get it. I didn’t automatically dislike the friends who posted stuff supporting Phil or that homosexuality is sin. I still like ya’ll and will not defriend you. I even didn’t think about blocking a Christian family member who called the LGBTQ community ‘sodomites.” I did wince a little because that one did hurt.

But there was one comment that has sparked this post. I tried to ignore it, thinking that a little rest and perspective would help me see the status update for what it is.  But it’s been three days and two nights; I’m still angry.

Here it is: “Homosexuality is not a sin that can’t be forgiven but is a reflection of a heart that doesn’t know Jesus Christ.”

Now, you may think that this post is harmless and you may even agree with it. I get that. I’m not even mad at the first part. I take great offense to the part about a ‘reflection of a heart that doesn’t know Jesus.’ Think what you want about the sinfulness of homosexuality, but don’t presume to know someone’s heart concerning Christ, especially if you haven’t personally journeyed with a LGBTQ Christian.

I’m going to give you a little glimpse into this Christian’s life: I grew up in Church and made a profession of faith at age 8. I absolutely love Jesus Christ and long to please the Triune God. I prayed from age 8 to 28 that God would deliver me from homosexuality. I have had hands laid on me for prayer. I have attended an ex-gay group and several ex-gay conferences. I have spent many-a-nights at the altar begging to become closer to God. I don’t think the Christian life is all rainbows and unicorns. I believe that we are called to take up our cross and follow God. I believe that we are to pursue holiness. I even seek to place my sexuality under the lordship of Christ. I don’t think it’s really any of your business, but I will tell you since most people believe homosexuals are sex-crazed. Since I am not married, I don’t have sex…period! I deflect my eyes from my television or in public if I see a woman that sparks lustful thoughts (btw… how many straight Christians can say the same thing?). I’m not perfect, but I sure try to live a holy life. I read the Bible pretty much every day. I have spent countless hours studying it, even the original Greek and Hebrew. I know what the Scripture says, and I know church history.

The point of this…don’t presume to know the heart of LGBTQ people. There are those of us who passionately love Christ.

59 thoughts on ““Homosexuality…is a reflection of a heart that doesn’t know Jesus Christ”

  1. Christy, nice post. I’m so there with you. I received an email from someone I didn’t know saying that I didn’t know the love of Jesus. I responded with “how can you judge whether or not I know the love of Jesus without knowing me?” You are so on target with the post!

  2. The Facebook post that sparked this blog entry is mine. When I wrote this post I in no way meant it to be in a judgmental and condemning way. I understand when questioning a person’s heart and their relationship with God I will step on toes…However, because I am a man of God it is impossible to not step on toes in times like these. I wrote this post because I am brokenhearted to see so many people being deceived by sin. People more often than not are trying to twist scripture into making it say something that it never has said.
    The Bible is God’s Holy Word. The Bible states many scriptures that condemn Homosexuality and again as a man of God I cannot keep quiet while people are saying that Jesus affirms a sinful lifestyle choice. I am writing this under the assumption that everyone who reads this believes the Bible is in fact the word of God and would prayerfully consider repenting of anything that God calls sin.
    There are many versus in the Bible that support homosexuality as being a sinful lifestyle choice. Some of the verses that are perhaps the most clear are the following:
    Romans 1:26-27
    26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    During this time people were not seeking after God. They were continuing to live in sin and because of this God delivered them over to their sin. God let them continue in the progression of their sin, which ultimately led to homosexuality. God did so out of wrath and this being his judgment.
    Genesis 2:24
    24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
    This verse is the declaration of God on what the institution of marriage is to be. God always meant for marriage to be a Holy union between Man and Woman. If God would have condoned same gender relationships then there would be verses affirming it. There would be verses in the Bible of God blessing that type of a union and it would not be stated as a sinful lifestyle. However, it is consistently throughout the Bible that homosexuality is a sin.
    1st Corinthians 6:9-11
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,]10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
    After reading this verse, you should be able to understand what my Facebook post was all about. My Facebook post said the following:
    “Homosexuality is not a sin that can’t be forgiven, but is a reflection of a heart that doesn’t know Jesus Christ.”
    What I wrote for my Facebook status that day is in the Bible. A heart that does not know Jesus, will belong to a lost person. A person who is lost will naturally exhibit in the type of lifestyle choices listed above in the verse. However, that is not the most important part of this verse! How many people started to read this verse in scripture, saw all of the sinful lifestyle choices and stopped reading? How many people rolled their eyes and thought to themselves I have read this verse a thousand times? You may have read the verse, but did you hear it? The absolute best part of this verse is the last part of it.
    ….But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
    That is Glorious! That is Grace! That is also, something that only God the Father can do! No matter what your circumstances may be if you seek after God with an open and willing heart He will sanctify you.
    How a person responds to the word of God is very revealing on where that person stands with God.
    So can a person who is a homosexual have a relationship with God?
    John 14:15
    15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
    In order to love God we must repent of all actions God considers sinful. It is very clear from scripture that homosexuality is a sin.
    1st John 1:5-7
    5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
    It is not always easy to get out of the darkness. I agree that we are all sinful and sanctification does not happen overnight. If we continue to walk in the darkness without seeking the light, it means we are not seeking after God. When you are saved salvation gives you a new heart and with that new heart comes new desires. These desires involve loving righteousness and hating wickedness. God does not require us to be perfect when we seek after Him, but in knowing Him we are continuously molded into His image.
    In closing, I think we need to ask ourselves as Christians when did we stop letting God mold us into His image and when did we start molding Him to fit ours? God is everlasting, always has been and always will be. God’s Holy Word is the Bible. What God considers righteous and sinful does not change because we want it to. It is easier to think that way, because when you mold God to fit your image it also justifies all of your life choices. However, that is not what we have been told or promised in the Bible. Again, I would like to say that I do not respond to this blog post out of hatred or condemnation. I am writing this because I feel so many people are being deceived and have not understood what the true gospel is all about. I pray that you will research the word of God carefully to see exactly what it teaches.

      • Obviously we all are not completely perfected yet but their is a difference between having sin we struggle with and walking in a lifestyle of sin and affirming it as good.

    • Dear Josh, your sincerity, concern and care is evident in your words above although I think your assumptions and departure point may not be perfect. There are indeed many verses that pertain to homosexual relations. Most of them assume a context of male cult prostitution. This was the most acceptable and widely spread form of this activity in OT and NT contexts. Thats a fact. The remainder of the verses deal with the idea of gang rape and in the case of Noah and Ham nonconsensual incestuous assault. I really dont feel that I am twisting scripture to say something it isnt when I point this out. In fact I think the widespread current understanding of the verses you so beautifully cite is what is in error and where eisegesis has been occurring to force scripture to say something in our context which was meant for another context … you may have noticed there are far fewer temples sporting male temple prostitutes around these days? 😉 This practice has disappeared. It was a practice which was mostly engaged in by straight men! In fact probably around 95% of the participants were straight men! LGBTQ people do have crosses to bear… the same as straight Christians… remaining celibate till marriage, remaining faithful in marriage, not being arrogant, proud or unteachable etc etc etc are crosses many have to bear irrespective of their sexual orientation… Not judging others when we lack sufficient knowledge could be another cross I suppose. For those of us with this tendency. Pertinent is the following: have you ever been tempted to same sex activity? If that offends you, sorry… but if you cannot answer that question you really have no place judging LGBTQ people… and and even if you are happy to answer it that does not necessarily give you the experience and knowledge to do so. Sorry for the rebuke… but im hoping you accept it in the spirit in which it is intended… and that it increases your ability to love these wonderful people in a greater measure! Blessings!

    • I would suggest STRONGLY that you sit down with an LGBT Christian and LISTEN. Many of us have been where you are — me for one and now, I am as sure as I can humanly and spiritually be, that I was WRONG.
      Please write to me, tell me where you are, you denomination and let me link you with a group of LGBT believers either in person or online so that you can go test to see if the Spirit in you resonates with the Spirit in them.
      I am so saddened when I read Christian quoting verses to gay Christians as if they have not read them and worked thru them FAR more deeply than you would ever imagine.
      I am a woman of God to your “man of God” and I am going toe to toe with you on this one. I know over a thousand gay Christians and your understanding in this, to me, is quite limited and narrow.
      What is “clear ” to you for your dogma is not clear to me in YOUR understanding.
      Before you cast aside the gay and trans children of God or try to become a formidable wall to the Kingdom, I suggest you spend time listening to another POV.
      Josh — you are not right. You so freely say that to people like Christy and I am going to freely type it to you. Do more work on this and until then, PLEASE stop offending God’s other children with your extremely limited understanding on this issue.
      Let me direct you to people/resources where you can be challenged. Please let me help you before you discourage even more people from a relationship with God.

      • Obviously we all are not completely perfected yet but their is a difference between having sin we struggle with and walking in a lifestyle of sin and affirming it as good.

      • I would be willing to talk to anyone about this issue and learn about their views. I should reiterate that I have never said people who are homosexual aren’t compassionate, friendly or loving people. I am sure that their would be many issues on which we would agree. But at the end of the day people who affirm homosexuality have to look at very clear precise scriptures and ignore its meaning.If you can show me one verse in the Bible where God affirms homosexual behavior then i will gladly repent of my statement and apologize for my stance.

    • Who are you to say that anything is a sin? The Bible is for each individual person to decide how to live their own lives (if they so choose to use the Bible to decide how to live their lives), not to tell someone else that what they are doing is sin. I may have (and do) a different interpretation than you do, and that’s between me and God. It’s actually the sin of pride (and idolatry, actually) when we try to get in there and convict someone else of their sin, because that is the Holy Spirit’s job, and if we try to do it, we are trying to be God.

      • Matthew 7:1-5 is a description of how believers should confront sin.

        2nd timothy 3:16- all scripture is God breathed and used for correcting and teaching and rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

        if we can see there is a moral standard bring broken we have an obligation to follow the commands in scriptures listed above about how to confront someone in sin.

      • So Let me ask You do you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? Because if you believe is that God inspired the Bible then their is nothing he unaware of. And Homosexuality is not a new concept in the Bible it goes back even to the Old testament. I pray you let the Bible guide your moral code and nothing else. Because it is almost as if you are saying we have a new enlightened truth that Goes beyond the word of God.

    • Josh — I see you are close enough to Chicago. Please join me at the Gay Christian Network Conference from January 9th to 12th. Come to one session, all or just the services on Sunday am. If there is still a friends and family rate, I would even cover the cost of registration for the conference for you.
      If you are short on time, join me and about 600 other LGBT believers and their allies for Sunday morning worship and then, have a meal with me and tell me if you still think indeed there is no place in the Kingdom of God for His LGBT children. Not just the celibate as you may think acceptable, but the partnered ones, the ones that are pastors and in seminary, the recently out ones, the once married heterosexually ones — be brave, come.
      Just as when one becomes a believer, there is no PROOF. Some things are learned in the Spirit, not in the brain where you seem to want to resolve all this. When your Spirit resonates the the Spirit in an LGBT believer, you may well come undone as I was 8 years ago.

      • Chicago is quite a drive for me I am not sure i Would be able to make a trip that far.I agree that their are things learned in the spirit but the only test for what we learn in the spirit to see if it correct is to judge it by the standard of the word Of God. Feelings and emotions cant verify truth.

    • Josh – PROVE to me that your conversion happened. i want evidence in the Word. Or was it a spiritual transaction between you and God? Not everything is provable on paper. You are wrong Josh. Because you so freely state that those do not hold to a traditional reading are wrong — I am going to push back.
      Come to Chicago — or write to me at the address i supplied twice and let me introduce you to some affirming communities that you can visit. Because Josh, you are wrong. There ARE gay Christians that do not fit inside your paradigm or thinking or interpretation of the Bible.

      • The Proof of my salvation is shown by my continual sanctification that takes place in my life I am not sinless or perfected but I have a new attitude given to me by God to where I hate what he describes as sin and loves what he calls good. A true relationship with God involves placing yourself under his lordship and acknowledging what he desires out of my life he can have. There has been a complete transformation in my character toward Godliness and it is no way related to my efforts.

        I apologize I don’t have the ability to come to Chicago at that date. I will write to you at that address.

  3. I am a Christian, but was not raised in the church. I gave my life to Christ because I am the worst sinner i know. I’m not gay, never had intercourse with anyone other than my wife, don’t watch movies with nudity, I don’t get drunk or take drugs, never killed anyone, haven’t stolen as an adult, I’ve worked for churches, volunteered, discipled, read the entire bible, etc… Yet I’ve never seen sin more real than whats in my heart. Selfishness that keeps coming back, I covet, I lust, I’m prideful. Maybe others are as well, but I see the good that I ought to do and I don’t do it. I don’t know anyone as intimately as I know myself. I don’t know the battles they fight, but I know my sin. I know what my sin deserves. I carry a few stones and I suppose I throw them at folks when I lose sight of my sin. But when I see my offenses clearly, I drop those stones and extend the hand that once held the stones. I am the worst of all sinners. If His grace is enough for me…..
    I’m encouraged by your openness. My prayer is that you continue to surrender your will for that of Christ’s. God’s strength.

  4. I find it really fascinating that in discussing all of this, we are using two words that are never used within Scripture itself. The Bible never uses the word(s) “homosexual” or “homosexuality.” That is a word of modern construction that did not exist in the ancient world at the time the Bible was written. It is a word that was constructed to define new knowledge of human sexuality as a result of science and psychology. Science and psychology had not been discovered by people in the ancient world. In today’s context, we understand “homosexuality” to be something remarkably different than what the Biblical authors understood. Their context for what was “homosexual” behavior was very limited. Something like male prostitution, rape, or pederasty. It would be like saying, “some men rape women, and that is a heterosexual sex act. Therefore, because rape is wrong, all heterosexual sex acts are wrong.” The Bible never blankets all homosexuality in a negative light, precisely because it doesn’t understand what “homosexuality” is in its entirety. There certainly was no understanding that two people of the same sex could fall in love and that a sexual act could originate out of that love. So I always find this discussion of what the Bible says about “homosexuality” to be a bit misleading. It really is not discussing “homosexuality,” because it doesn’t really understand what it is. It mentions very specific contexts of same-sex acts.

    The other part to this is that we undoubtedly read and hear some people describe homosexuality as a sin whenever this discussion occurs. The interesting thing, however, is that in the literalness of the Bible, the word “sin” is never used. Not in Leviticus. Not in the Sodom and Gomorrah story (which btw, really shouldn’t even be part of this discussion any longer. The argument that Sodom and Gomorrah was about rampant homosexuality is so weak, that its simply laughable at this point.) Not in Romans. Not in St. Paul’s epistles. Yes, the words “abomination” and “unnatural” are used. However, it is very, very important to point out that there are ancient Hebrew and Greek words for “sin”, yet they are not used in any of these passages. The description of the same-sex sexual acts within the passages, is one out of a cultural taboo context, and not out of a moral and/or value judgment context. Never in any part of the Bible is the word “sin” ever uttered on this topic, and to me, that is one of the greatest (and perhaps is the greatest) falsehoods that has ever been perpetuated on this matter.

    But, none of what I just said will really convince people who hold deeply held views that homosexuality is a sin. It is my suspicion that their opinion on this has less to do with what Scripture actually says about this, and more to do with their own personal dislike and bias toward a certain expression of human sexuality. If the average Christian could study the Scripture as in depth as leading Biblical scholars that exist in the academic world today, they would see all this. But they don’t, and many probably won’t, because it ruffles their security mechanism.

    • You say Not all Homosexuality is portrayed in a negative light i have said before find one verse that shows homosexuality in a positive light and i will recant everything I said. And although the term homosexual is not used in the Bible the moral illustration is evident. Even words like trinity and rapture are not found in the Bible but we can clearly see what the representation is.In many of the posts I am reading you make God seem very ignorant about Homosexuality. How could the very God who created us and placed us on this earth not know about committed Homosexual relationships. The institution of Marriage was given to us by God in genesis and reaffirmed to us by Jesus in the New Testament that one man and one woman leave their families and cleave to another.And even though the word sin is not located right in the passage it does say Homosexuality is what God gave the people over too. The Only Union Blessed by God through his speaking in the new Testament in one man and woman leaving their families and cleaving together.

  5. Thank you for writing this. I’m sorry for the hurtful words of other Christians. I love what the pope said (I’m paraphrasing): if the person seeks God and loves others , who am I to judge?

  6. Great piece, Christy!
    Josh seems to have a problem finding a verse that sanctions gay marriage and is therefore assuming that the Bible condemns it. This is really fallacious logic. There is no verse in the Bible which says it is okay to drink a lime milkshake but I wonder if he therefore calls this sin too?
    And just because the Bible says eating apples is right doesn’t mean that eating peppadews is wrong. Surely.
    For me the bottom line is Josh needs to come out of the closet as to why he feels he can speak with any authority on a matter such as this. If he isnt a LGBTQ person himself then surely he should understand that God would not be speaking to him about this issue? It seems to me that he’s avoiding something in his own life by focusing on other peoples’ issues… What was it that Jesus said about removing the log in one’s own eye first? In this case Josh would discover there is actually NO splinter in yours!

    • I am constantly going back to the scripture as to why I have authority to talk the way I do. God is the moral authority on Human relationships. Not me or any other person has a right to speak for God unless we are using his scriptures as a guide for what God says is right and wrong. In my initial post I stated While I am writing this. I write none of my posts out of anger or condemnation. I am broken-hearted in my spirit because people are changing the directives on sexuality contained in the Bible. I am pleading with you in prayer carefully read what the Bible teaches on this issue because you are decieveing yourselves into believing a false Gospel. Th

      • The problem here, Josh, is that I have the same authority to talk the way I do according to Scripture. And I am saying something diametrically opposed to you. Scripture is the inspired Word of God: therefore the problem certainly isn’t with Scripture. The problem is with interpretation of Scripture: and that lies with us, with all our “authority”. Do you see the predicament you are not solving now?

  7. Mr Josh
    I do not very often post on these things. I have a question for you. In reading the scriptures you posted( which like Kathy said I have read and studied over and over. You appear to be saying that having gay sex is a sin. So do gay folk only sin when they have sex? Is believing that someone is the most wonderful person you every met ,sharing life’s highs and lows a sin? For some reason when some people ( especially some Christian) think about a person being gay they think of sex. But when they think of a man and wife they think of love. As women in our late 50’s having been together almost 20 years sex plays a very very very small part in our relationship. Thanks for reading this

    • it is very hard for me to put a definition on where actually sin takes. I always go back to what Marriage is described as by God in Genesis and repeated by Jesus in New Testament. friendships are good of any sex or gender but we all know within our own heart to when that relationship develops to something more.

  8. Having studied this for over two decades here’s a little summary I drew up, which Josh might find edifing? (Particularly if he really has a love for Scripture)
    13 Scriptural References to Homosexual Activity Compared
    1 Genesis 19:5 A mob consisting of “all the men from every part of the city of Sodom – both young and old” (therefore including Lot’s daughters’ two fiancés!) threatened Lot’s two angelic guests/rescuers (appearing as men) with (possibly sexual) violence
    2 Leviticus 18: 22 Forbids Israelite men (arseno) from having sex (koitai) with male Canaanite temple prostitutes (Molech/ba’al worship) [representing goddess Asherah]
    3 Leviticus 20: 13 Forbids Israelite men (arseno) from having sex (koitai) with male Canaanite temple prostitutes (Molech/ba’al worship) [representing goddess Asherah]
    4 Deuteronomy 23: 17 Forbids Israelite men and women from becoming temple prostitutes (Molech/ba’al worship)
    5 Judges 19: 22 A mob consisting of some of the wicked men from the city of Gibeah in Benjamin threaten a visiting Levite staying at an old man’s home with (possibly sexual) violence (and then rape his concubine all night instead, killing her)
    6 Job 36: 13-14 Elihu warns how those who lack knowledge in God’s grace die young / live on among the temple prostitutes (Molech?/ba’al? worship)
    7 1 Kings 14: 24 Documents how Israelite men became temple prostitutes
    8 1 Kings 15: 12 Documents how King Asa expelled some male temple prostitutes from Israel/Judah
    9 1 Kings 22: 46 Documents how King Jehoshaphat expelled the remaining male temple prostitutes from Israel/Judah
    10 2 Kings 23: 7 Documents how King Josiah destroyed the houses of the male temple prostitutes in the Temple in Jerusalem
    11 Romans 1: 26 Paul cleverly criticizes the pagan practices of (1) idol-making, (2) idol-worshipping and (3) idol-rituals involving temple prostitutes strongly associated with idols (Aphrodite, Artemis, Dionysus, Bacchus and other fertility gods and goddesses such as Cybele and Atys) and then likens these criticisms to similar Jewish history!
    12 1 Corinthians 6: 9 Paul lists 10 sin/ners including at least 2 unclear and differently translated words (malakoi and arsenokoitai ) which probably refer to temple prostitutes such as those dedicated to Aphrodite (temple in Corinth) and the men who, as part of the fertility rituals, had sex with them, respectively. Most of these would not necessarily be seen as being heinous crimes and many would be tolerated or even accepted by society at large.
    13 1 Timothy 1: 9 An unknown author (probably a follower of Paul, possibly collating various shorter notes from Paul to possibly Timothy in Ephesus into one letter) lists 8 types of sin/ners who (where the meaning is known) clearly hurt (harm or disadvantage) other people and corresponds roughly to the last 6 of the “10 Commandments.” These sins would be ‘illegal’ and generally severely punished by society. Includes the unclear term “arsenokoitai” thought to refer to men who had sex with the male temple prostitutes of Artemis (temple in Ephesus) as part of fertility rituals.

    (1) Why would God not like the idea of the “temple prostitutes” (qadesh)?
    (2) How many of the above 13 verses relate to “temple prostitutes”?
    (3) What do the remaining verses condemn?
    (4) How many of the above verses refer to loving, faithful, committed homosexual relationships?

  9. 1-Temple Prostitutes were sinful before God and every verse in Old testament is referencing that I completely agree with you on the context. It was degrading what the temple should be used for.

    Romans 1:26-27 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

    I don’t Know how you can spin that verse to mean anything not condemning Homosexuality.

    1st Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

    If every single one of these only refer to temple prostitutes why Does the Bible never come and bless loving and committed Homosexual relationships.

    The only relationship blessed by God is marriage between one man and woman in Genesis 2:24. This affirmation is again said by Jesus in the New Testament. If God truly does bless homosexual relationships then what the concept of Ma
    rriage is would not be so direct.

    • Good questions, Josh. To which I have solid answers. (But I must object to your unkind use of the word “spin”. I find that disrespectful and rude – basically you are insulting my motivations. And THAT is wrong, hurtful and quite frankly therefore sinful. That is no way to treat a brother in Christ now is it?)
      That aside I shall do the mature thing and answer your questions as best I can:
      A careful study of the Leviticus texts (which I see you concede deal with pagan cult prostitution) reveals that in the Septuagint (written in Koine Greek) which St Paul used and quoted from in his epistles most often when referring to the OT the two words “arseno” and “koitai” are used. (literally “man” + “bed” respectively.)
      In the NT verses you refer to (i.e. 1 Cor 6 …and also 1 Tim 1) you will note that Paul made a compound word from these 2 Greek words (arsenokoitai!). From this we know that he had Leviticus 18 and 20 in mind in these 2 NT occurrences of this new word. It is therefore obvious that Paul had the pagan cults in mind when he included these words in his list (note this kind of prostitution was very common and involved both idolatry and adultery … hence God’s intense hatred of this particular vice).
      Now that leaves Romans 1. This is a beautiful and amazingly wonderfully crafted piece of writing by St Paul. I’ve spent many months studying it and performing exegesis (not eisegesis on it). As a result I am more certain than ever that this too (and especially) deals with pagan “worship” rituals (idol worship). It would take me quite a while to summarise this powerful piece of Scripture. I can do this if you’d really like to hear about Rom 1 (just let me know)……

      • I apologize for using the word spin it is never my intention to question peoples motives just come to an understanding of the truth. If every verse that condemns Homosexuality is only about Temple prostitutes then why is there never a distinction made about committed loving Homosexual relationships? Why Does Jesus repeat the command given by God in Genesis that a man should leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife? i

    • You will find NOTHING in the Bible specifically speaking of people that are homosexual. I think I already wrote this to you. It is at this point where we diverge. You NEED to see it in the Bible — it is not there. NO author had this awareness. Go meet people. Let the Spirit resonate.

      • How do you know if what you feel in your spirit is correct? Even if you want to say authors didn’t have this awareness would not the almight creator of the universe beware of this issue.

      • Thanks for apologizing re the word “spin” – I accept your apology. To mishandle Scripture, the inspired Word of God, deliberately would be a grievous sin in itself (Satan did this when he tempted Jesus in every way) and so would actually be quite a hectic accusation. I respect Scripture very highly and therefore believe in careful and time-consuming study and exegesis – which means NEVER just taking it at face-value and ALWAYS remembering that it was not originally written in English and was written in contexts ver different to our current ones.. We should remember that St Peter wrote that St Paul’s writings could be difficult and even misunderstood. So we need to be exceptionally wary of playing loose and fast with Paul’s epistles (such as the 3 NT verses which pertain to “homosexual” – or rather “same-gender” – sex.) [I note that some contributors here are using the word “homosexual” in different and contradictory ways which sets people at cross-purposes a bit].
        Now down to your very important and poignant question re why God never ever mentioned and sanctioned same-sex marriages. I have to be honest I certainly wish He did! But in his superior wisdom He chose not to explicitly mention this anywhere in the canon of Scripture! This despite the fact that as omniscient He must’ve known about it. In fact Emperor Nero was twice married to men (in the days of the early church) … one called Sporus and one called Pythagorus (not the mathematician!). As the most famous and powerful person on earth at the time the early church must have known about same-sex marriage! Still they never mentioned it.
        I suspect that the Bible deals with the general principles and norms and as around 96% of people are straight and some of the remaining 4% (who are LGBTQ) are not interested in marriage anyway maybe that explains why it didn’t merit a mention? I also note that the Bible doesn’t explicitly prohibit 2 people with Down Syndrome getting married (even though they probably would not have the intellectual ability to raise children). And also there is no Biblical prohibition on 2 Little People getting married (even though with certain forms of this variation of human being the chances of offspring surviving is only 50%!)… Maybe the Bible gives the general principles and we need to sensibly (and LOVINGLY) apply the principles to the more exceptional cases where they apply to US. That would make sense to me. Now I know Adam was a man and Eve was a woman …. but they were also presumably not Down Syndrome individuals or Little People. And yet we do not hear some Christians trying to say marriage is only for people who match their IQ and height categories, do we? So why the focus on matching their genitalia / genders?
        Basically though i think we should not add things to Scripture. And if Scripture does not explicitly forbid something we should really not do so either.
        Logically saying the Bible doesn’t mention gay marriage is okay and therefore it is sinful is tantamount to saying the Bible doesn’t say that using an aeroplane (or a car for that matter!) is okay and therefore it is sinful. This is absurd.
        Thanks for asking the question by the way … it forced me to articulate my ideas on the matter… Would be interested to hear what you think about this input now, Josh…

  10. Hi Christy, this is a beautiful post. I was led here by Kathy B.’s FaceBook post. I would like to reply to Josh. Josh, I too am a Christian. Specifically of the right wing, conservative, evangelical persuasion. I love the Word of God and hold it in highest esteem, believing it to be in fact God-breathed as you do. As others have posted here, I used to believe as you do but because of the horrific shame and rejection that Christians often heap upon the shoulders of the LGBT community, I decided to really study these verses in their context and with as best an understanding of the original words in their language as I could. The Holy Spirit has changed my heart and given me new eyes to see His eternal Truth in these verses. It’s not that I think there is a new revelation, it’s that I think because of prejudice and revulsion, the Church has misunderstood. The plank in our eye does not allow us to see clearly.

    I am now convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that God condemns lust, rape, violence, prostitution and idolatrous sexual practices in the homosexual community just as He does in the heterosexual community. Here is the difference. There are hundreds of verses condemning sexual sin of the heterosexual nature. No one ever takes that body of teaching and extrapolates from them that loving, monogamous, life long relationships between men and women are sinful. That would be silly of course, those verses aren’t speaking of that topic. But when we come to the handful of verses that deal with homosexual sin, we do exactly that. We extrapolate from that that all homosexual relationships are sinful. This is hypocritical and clearly an example of reading our own biases into scripture. Scripture is silent on the question “does God bless loving, monogamous, same sex relationships”.

    Scripture wasn’t written in a vacuum. The writers, even though inspired by God were real men (and maybe women) writing to contemporary people about real things they saw happening in their world. The same sex behavior that Paul and Moses witnessed was harmful and sinful for sure, just like the same heterosexual behaviors they condemned. They didn’t understand an innate, loving attraction between those of the same sex and thus didn’t write about it. They also didn’t write about whether I should let my 12 year old daughter watch PG-13 movies. Where scripture is silent, there is grace. A great short book on the topic that I highly recommend to any sincere seeker of understanding as to how bible believing Christians can disagree on this topic is called The Children Are Free. It can easily be read in a sitting and is heavily annotated if you want to dig further.

    Also, if you are going to post about this topic, please educate yourself about the knowledge within the scientific and medical communities concerning human sexuality. While you and I can agree heartily that sinful lifestyle choices are to be avoided, sexual orientation is not a choice.

  11. Dr heath- thank you for carefully reading my post I can see a strong conviction on your part to ultimately get to what is right. But obviously God did not cover every scenario of mankind would imagine as far as human relationships go. But Homosexual Marriage would have been forbidden By God’s command in Genesis 2:24 where as your illustration about little people and down syndrome people would have had no direct relation.

    Homosexuality However is referred to in a negative light. Throughout the Old and New testament the Bible is quite clear on the issue( I can find many verses on Homosexuality and all are in a negative way.) I am just afraid many people don’t want to hear what the Bible says because it disagrees with what they think to be true.

  12. Hi Josh – you seem to be contradicting some of what you wrote earlier. I agree that many people don’t want to hear what the Bible says because it disagrees with what they think to be true. i think you are one of these people.

  13. I’m sorry I do believe I mistyped it has been a long day. But I do believe the framework for what constitutes marriage has been clearly established by God at the very beginning of humanity and that moral framework was repeated by Jesus in New Testament.I could imagine a million crazy other scenarios for what is right and wrong in human relationships but anything that clearly diverges from the originial command must be called as sin. God did not nievely not not affirm homosexuality as many on this board to seem to believe. There are several pro- hetrersoexual commands conatained in scripture while there is absolutely nothing said positive in scripture with everything regarding Homosexuality described as Negative In Bible. If the clearest description is never good enough in regards to Homosexuality maybe it says something to our interpretation skills.

    • I agree that the framework for what constitutes IDEAL marriage was clearly established in the Garden of Eden (before the Fall). Some Christians want to focus on the outer physical details (genitalia) of this story. Others look for the inner, deeper message: about love, faithfulness, commitment, intimacy and establishing a new family in which to raise children in a secure environment. The former tend to be more legalistic, literal-minded and simplistic. The latter tend to focus more on the spirit of the law (which is what St Paul explicitly recommends) and apply the principles with understanding to a variety of situations.

      But God was definitely okay with some variations and exceptions on this theme (as evident with how he dealt with Jacob having two wives … and many others listed in Hebrews 11 as being in heaven now who were not in the monogamous marriages originally described in Genesis).

      So we see that this is not a clear cut and simplistic matter – maybe that is one of the lessons of Heb 11.

      You seem to think and want the Bible to be a simple and clear Law Book with a whole lot of recipes in it for what to do and what not to do. God came up with a much more creative Bible than that where we can only understand it correctl by relating with Him over time. He speaks from His Word (logos) into our lives as and when WE need to hear it (rhema). If you are not LGBTIQ then don’t expect God to speak clearly about this issue to you … for there is no reason why He should tell you how to handle a situation which does not concern you. He would be trying to talk to you about some other arae relevant to YOUR life (possibly about not judging others?). Are you gay or bi by the way?

      Yes, the Bible does clearly condemn same sex prostitution (as it does opposite sex prostitution) and same sex gang rape (as it does opposite sex gang rape) and same sex incestuous assault (as it does opposite sex incestuous assault). But it does not ever condemn same sex marriage – even though God in His wisdom must have known about this possibility.. This should be a moot point.


      More importantly many Christians can testify that they have seen how Christian Gay Marriages (committed, faithful and loving) have blessed many, bringing them closer to God and man and in no way contravening Jesus’ Command to Love (upon which all the Laws – when correctly understood through a NT lens – need to be understood).

      Who are you to stand in their way?

      As some smart alec quipped: “If you don’t like gay marriage then don’t have one”. I think there is a profound truth in this in that you need to decide if this is your business or someone else’s and without being nasty, you then need to mind your own business. I ask you once again: is this your business? Are you LGBTI or Q?

  14. Legalism only occurs when you add to what the Bible doesn’t teaches. IF I said that about any activity in The Bible that there was no postitive encouragement about it and only negative statements made I think you would want to avoid it. The Only way people find positive claims about Homosexuality is to Go outside of God words.

    Just Because Jacob Had tow wives in the Old testament doesn’t mean that was approved by God. it was a sin by a man in the BIble never meant to be a justification of anything.

    I am not a gay person But I have still have a right to proclaim the word of God ( 2nd timothy 3:16). According to that logic either people would be a hypocrite or have no right to say anything to you since they are not part of LBGTQ community.

    When we are talking about coming closer to God a big part of that is hating what God calls sinful and embracing what he calls Good. God blessed marriage between a man and woman and God gave people in their sin over to Homosexuality in Romans 1. The Bible will always be the clear standard on whether or not we truly Love God.

    I am going to be honest the reason I write this is because people are spiritually deceived and I ultimately care for the soul of the LBGTQ Community. To let people continue down a destructive path is not loving it is simply cruel. I confront people in love because I care about the souls of people and If i have to share straightforward truths to accomplish that then I will.

    Because salvation is only acheived when we repent and turn away from our sins and no longer justify our sin. I pray everyone would embrace the cross deny themselves and follow Jesus

    • I agree with much of what you say e.g.
      “When we are talking about coming closer to God a big part of that is hating what God calls sinful and embracing what he calls Good. God blessed marriage between a man and woman”
      “Because salvation is only acheived when we repent and turn away from our sins and no longer justify our sin. I pray everyone would embrace the cross deny themselves and follow Jesus”

      …and many other points you make (and I’m sure that many Christians who support gay marriages do too). I see no contradiction between these ideas and God accepting and blessing same sex marriages.

      So maybe we should remember all the moot points and stop trying to treatt others who differ from us on this specific issue as if they are completely ignorant of the basics and essentials of the faith?

      Where I don’t agree with you is your description of legalism. Although it interests me that you say that it is where one adds to what the Bible teaches … which is kind of what you’re doing when you are saying the Bible condemns same sex marriages. It clearly doesn’t (else we both would know the chapter and verse and we would not be having this sincere discussion).

      I believe legalism (as defined in the Bible by Jesus and Paul) is when people obey law for its own sake – rather than for the underlying purpose (which is to Love God … and neighbour). It is the focusing on outer appearances (the letter of the Law) rather than the real purpose and meaning thereof (the spirit of the Law). It is placing Law above people. It is forgetting that God made the Law for people – not the other way around. It is losing sight of the fact that correctly understanding and applying the Law always means Loving people. It neglects the freedom for which we have been set free and tries to control people. It is motivated by fear and not by love.

      There is no way that gay marriage contravenes the Golden Rule … the rule to Love God and neighbour. There is simply no victim. No one is hurt by this in any way.

      You should stop putting words in God’s mouth.

      You are not preaching God’s Word here. You are preaching YOUR HUMAN INTERPRETATION of it. Fallible. So become a lot more humble (and tentative about it).

      You are being way too sure of yourself and this is a mistake … it is actually arrogant. A humble attitude remains teachable and open to growing.

      Heres’ a bit of an analogy for you to think about…. seeing you seem to be building your rather tenuous stance on this kind of reasoning: The Bible never says anything positive about nudity. In fact every time it mentions nudity it does so in a negative light. We should therefore never ever remove our clothes… We should even shower with them on.

      This is of course ridiculous.

      But this is the same “logic” and “reasoning” you are using when you attempt to work with what Scripture says about same sex activity (always and only cult prostitute activity / gang rape / incestuous non-consensual abuse … ALL OF WHICH HAVE VICTIMS!)

      Of course those things are spoken about negatively! How could a loving God not speak about those things negatively? They hurt people!

      It is time that you stop hurting people with your legalistic and judgemental words. I know that you mean well. And given your understanding of things you are acting accordingly in trying to help people who you see as heading towards destruction. The truth is though that you are in error. You, like Saul, on the road to Damascus, need to have your eyes opened to a newer, fuller truth and stop persecuting those whom God calls His own. And like Peter in Joppa, you need to stop calling that which God calls clean, ‘unclean’.

      Stop thinking you are doing God’s work for Him and realize that He only calls us to work where we love. And although you claim to care about the ‘soul of the LGBTQ community’ you don’t seem to actually love (or be in fellowship relationship) with any Gay Christians. Until that happens this is not your calling, your flock or your area of responsibility.

  15. There is an issue between loving god and homosexuality. Because to love god is to keep his commands. Leviticus 20.13, Romans 1:26, 1st Corinth 6:9 are all very clear explicit verses against homosexuality. In trying to interpret verses the easiest interpretation is the best. You should be able to take verses on face value. Nudity is something spoken of negatively in areas are considered pornographic. Nudity between a man and woman in marriage is spoken of very positively in scripture.

    I always check myself to make sure I am right . But I need scripture to change my position. Gods word is only source of truth. If god calls homosexuality clean please show me where so I can repent.

  16. Yep Josh, to love God is definitely to keep His commands. His commands – not your (mis)interpretations of them. Not your broadening them to include things they do not. In doing that you are in fact breaking a couple of commands yourself…
    you are twisting Scripture to say something it was never intended to
    you are hurting fellow believers
    you are placing stumbling blocks which prevent others coming to Jesus
    you are adding to the rhetoric whihc helps homophobic gay bashers justify their violence
    you are increasing the hopelessness which drives many LGBTQ youth to suicide

    of course your last 2 paragraphs are so full of falsehoods (clearly contradicting Scripture itself and widely held Christian beliefs re the Bible) that you have finally revealed yourself for the troll that I have long suspected you to be…

    i only humoured you because it disciplined me into putting some of my thoughts down in writing … for that I thank you! I think I have now said everything I need to say … so I will probably end my input here and wish you a life beyond the immense pleasures of trolling!

    Ooooh! one last thought I nearly forgot about: (mostly for my own record and for any serious readers here – not you, Josh!)

    If someone claims to really care for LGBTQ people they should mention where and how often they do things like stand up against homophobia, heterosexism and homoprejudice. Josh of course does none of this. His “helping” LGBTQ people is limited to Bible-bashing them… which is not only abuse of people but also abuse of the Bible. His blood will be on his own head.

  17. I am sorry you feel If As I am Troll. The Only reason I arrived to this blog Is because I saw something I posted written on here and i felt I needed to defend myself. I never once started name calling even though I was labeled some pretty harsh things on here.

    I am not placing Stumbling Blocks in front of people trying to reach Jesus because you can only come to Jesus on the grounds of true repentance not making scripture say what you want it to say.

    I have asked several times for people on here to justify Homosexuality with scripture. And I was always referred to as Bible basher. For someone to feel strongly about an issue yet not have one scripture to use for its defense it makes no sense for me and anyone who Holds the Bible in highest regard.

    Leviticius 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

    Romans 1:26-Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    I would never condone abuse of anyone based upon thier sexual orientation. That would be a sin on anyone’s part and I would be outraged if anyone in my church used gay slurs or insults. Even though I very much agree homosexuality is sinful God never condones any type of prejudice.

    • Hi Josh – I’m glad to hear I was wrong in thinking you were trolling. (although you certainly do many of the things trolls do! and may want to examine that a bit). It seems as if you do not read others’ contributions very carefully or comprehensively (maybe a bit like you read the Bible?) and then err in your descriptions thereof (e.g. “I was always referred to as a Bible-basher” Really?? ‘Always’?? Or is that a bit of an exaggeration … and therefore not true?)

      Away from points of order and back to the topic though:

      Seeing you did not think much of the nudity analogy and think that the Bible speaks positively about this issue (I’d like to see a verse or two to support your assertion here)… here is another analogy you might find a bit more challenging:

      I think you will agree that the Bible definitely disapproves of the idea of people sticking sharp blades into the bodies of other people? It always takes a dim view of stabbing … from the time of Cain and Abel on, through the piercing of Jesus’ side by a spear blade and onto the murder of the martyrs. According to your way of reasoning we should ban surgeries such as appendectomies as a result of this. After all there are only ever negative descriptions of blades being inserted into bodies and nothing positive is ever said about appendectomies (or appendixes for that matter!). Would you support the idea of us banning surgeries too just as you would condemn gay marriages (simply because they never recieve an explicit and specific thumbs up in a verse in Scripture along with the only references to gay sex – albeit always in a violent or cultic prostitution context).

      I’d be interested how you regard surgery from a Biblical perspective.

  18. Hi All! Thank you so much for reading my post and taking the time to comment. I really enjoyed reading the conversations.

    Two things:
    Josh, I did not write this post to bash you specifically. That’s why I never, ever mentioned your name. There were many posts I found on my Facebook feed that was very similar to your comment. I would strongly suggest that you actually befriend a LGBTQ Christian and really get to know them. Although you say that you take things straight from the Bible, you are actually doing the very Scripture twisting that you claim people who have come to a different conclusion on this matter are doing. It is arrogant to assume that you have this figured out, and that we, the LGBTQ people who have had to wrestle with this and Scripture for a much, much longer time than you, are just looking for what we want. We don’t have the luxury that you, a heterosexual male, has to just form an opinion and just go on with life. This is our life.

    2nd thing: Although I think Josh is wrong about this, I do NOT think he is a troll. I went to college with him, and he is a very good man. He has a heart that truly wants to love and serve people. It was hurtful in the things he wrote, but I still desire to break bread with him. In fact, if we lived closer together, I would probably have dinner with him regularly just to pester him :).

    Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all!

  19. Hi Christy I think you for being very understanding ion your post. I think we are reading scripture and arriving at different interpretations about what it means. I honestly don’t think we could say anything which would change anyone’s mind at this point. I would disagree that I am twisting scripture because I even listed out the verse many of the times I was referencing the Bible. For my position I never have to add anything because the scripture says so much at face Value.

    I care for everyone on this board and anyone having to go through the struggles that many of you on this board have go through. I will pray for you and encourage you in any way that I can.

  20. Dang Christy! You sparked some interesting conversations above. All I have to say is that the Spirit expressly says to test everything. We test by fruit of the teaching If the teaching bears good fruit, it is good. Love is the most important fruit that can be born.

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